Dubai Shatters all Records for Cost of Solar with Earth's Largest Solar Power Plant
Dubai Shatters all Records for Cost of Solar with Earth’s Largest Solar Power Plant
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Read the tea leaves republicans
It’s like a snowball rolling downhill. Just keeps getting bigger and less expensive??
Good that they did this. But we should be using the surface area on peoples roofs, instead of taking up more of the planets surface. Might as well use them since they just sit there getting beat on by the sun all day
Connor Anderson: Luckily, Dubai has plenty of desert surface where people don’t want to, and should not be forced to, live.
Connor Anderson
It makes more sense to put solar panels, where there is a lot of sunlight. Don’t worry we won’t run out of barren dessert anytime soon.
Basic math time.
Dubia Desert 899,600 mi²
Lets say half of it could be used and rounded for ease.
Area used 450,000 mi²
This article estimates 5GW per 40 sq km. or 48 MW per square mile.
so 450,000 mi² would produce 21.6 PW or about 136 times the total wordlwide energy needs.
Then there is the Sahara which is bigger than the Arabian.
Now for some basic economics.
Solar companies that lease solar roofing charge $0.12 per KWh with optimal placement; that is competitive pricing few are profitable. This plant in Dubai runs at $0.03 per KWh. Meaning $60,000 invested in your home would be equal to $20,000 invested in Dubia for the same value.
nustada Agreed. But then you have to set up a network of transmission lines to distribute the power from the desert. Better to avoid the distribution aspect by installing it directly where it is used.
No, it is better they be away from housing. All that black surface will only increase the urban heat island effect where people want to stay cool.
And Ken B Elon musk is selected into Trumps think tank.
Trump said he did not like Solar panels because the present state of engineering on them gives them a real life of ten years. He is totally on the ball here. They need to be “building integrated”. Damage against the cost, severe weather and damp can barely make them turn a profit in many places.
Elon’s toughened glass roof tiles will be another matter.
Connor Anderson
Distibution losses are negligible with HVDC. Which should be built anyways for trade, distribution and up-time. There should be a global HVDC network.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the-smarter-grid/lets-build-a-global-power-grid
nustada I was not talking about losses. Im talking about the resources to build the distribution system. When we have the means to avoid any kind of power transmission and distribution systems, thats a massive infrastructure that we do not need anymore. I’d say thats important. Why ship power hundreds or thousands of miles when you can just generate it on your roof and it never leaves your house.
Connor Anderson Go do it girlfriend.
Those in Dubai will tell you to p*ss off, its hot enough already.
Connor Anderson
“when you can just generate it on your roof”
I gave you the math why, because it is cheaper. You just have a fear of big number I think.
nustada sometimes its not always about $ cost. Whats the planetary cost. Less resources.
The idea of a grid, can be a thing of the past.
m1aws the fact remains solar is booming, i dont care who builds it.
Connor Anderson
“its not always about $ cost.”
Its ALWAYS about $ cost. As other costs get priced into the end good. Polution problems only are not factored in when government abridges property rights. I wish you watermelons would stop pretending to be environmentalists.
The only valid argument for residential PV is in backup case of grid failure, that is a premium, it cannot be more economical.
nustada Sometimes, companies invest appropriately. Sometimes, companies do not. But dont be a part of the people that sit there and say that wasting resources is a better option simply to save a theoretical dollar value.
Connor Anderson
Not using a resource is wasting a resource.
nustada If the technology is available to prevent constructing a massive distribution infrastructure, then you are wasting resources because you have the means to avoid it.
Connor Anderson
“a massive distribution infrastructure”
Installing solar everywhere is LESS efficient you would have to install MORE material. Meaning MORE resources would be needed to do it your way.
A solar panel in coastal California, is approximately 1/3 the efficiency of a solar panel in Dubia, and its worse in most other places, due to factors such as cloud cover, and lack of tilting mechanisms (as in a roof). Meaning your way would take about 3x the material to produce the same amount of power. And wire is much less expensive than panels.
nustada keep it simple mate. With no infrastructure as he dreams, he has no electricity at night. This place will have a battery backup. No question. Its what those building do.
Cool.
m1aws Backup battery in your house bro. Stop making it seem so complicated.
Connor Anderson
Not complicated, just expensive. Having a battery system costs easily the double the cost of the panels themselves, then batteries also need to be replaced about generously about every 15 years. Meaning if you use batteries, you will never have a grid relative payoff.
Why are most solar advocates are totally clueless.
A global HVDC grid is the only solution with present tech.
nustada Why do the batteries have to be replaced every 15 years?
nustada pocket-lint.com – Future batteries, coming soon: charge in seconds, last months and power over the air – Pocket-lint
Ken B Thats great and all, but im focusing on what is available right now.
Wesley Shipman In courtesy of “its already been done, oh well”.
Connor Anderson
“Why do the batteries have to be replaced every 15 years?”
Because they stop working. That is the high end life for deep cycle batteries used in solar installation.
Here is a more detailed explanation.
http://www.power-thru.com/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Batteries%20-%20POWERTHRU%20White%20Paper.pdf
nustada Where are you getting your information to suggest that batteries completely stop working after 15 years.
Connor Anderson
Experience. Realistically its closer to 5 years, 15 is very generous, the usable stored energy degrades over time. I run a data-center and have to deal with batteries to ensure up-time. They are a huge drain on the budget. You can add capacitors and fly wheels to extend them a few more years.
nustada Take note that the battery chemistry determines the longevity. So unless your data center UPS batteries are the same as what goes into Teslas Powerwall and car packs, your experience is not universal to all lithium batteries.
nustada And on top of that, Data center UPS systems need to be extremely accurate. Any significant loss of capacity or just general losses over time can render the entire UPS system unreliable. This is not the same for a household battery backup. A household battery backup system can handle a 40% loss in capacity or power. You wont be able to use as much but it will still work. So if that is the criteria you use for replacing batteries, unfortunately for you, regardless of how much has been lost over the years, it still runs.
Connor Anderson
“systems need to be extremely accurate”
Voltage is conditioned through circuitry, either there is enough power or there is not.
The only thing “unique” that we use a fly wheel so that brownouts don’t draw on the batteries as hard. That is not something most residential can use because of initial costs and containment issues in case of critical failure.
So failure looks like this for us.
Grid > Flywheel > Batteries > Natural Gas Generator. Each layer responds slower than the next.
What we use for batteries other than the flywheel is a fraction of the cost of Tesla’s battery over its life cycle.
“regardless of how much has been lost over the years, it still runs.”
No, what is lost is lost. You will need to add more batteries to compensate for lost capacity. You have to keep buying them.
nustada When did i say anything about voltage. You retard.
nustada After you edited your post. “No, what is lost is lost. You will need to add more batteries to compensate for lost capacity. You have to keep buying them.”
Or you suck it up and deal with having a 10kWh backup system instead of a 14kWh backup system.
Connor Anderson
“Suck it up”
Batteries continue to degrade, it is an ongoing expense. Please stop saying shit, when you have no knowledge of the subject.
Connor Anderson
“When did i say anything about voltage. You retard.”
I quoted you, retard. Voltage is the only thing that needs to be “accurate” amperage is a function of resistance and load, the load being the equipment which is variable.
Incoming voltage is conditioned, so that there is always a pure 60hz 240v. Regardless of noise on the AC line or voltage level of the DC. However if incoming Voltage drops too low, the maximum amperage drops, and then things shut down.
nustada Batteries continue to degrade does not mean that you have to continuously spend to keep them at 100%. You’re basing your argument on suggesting that battery degradation is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated.
nustada I guess you forgot about capacity, which in turn is the run time. I dont know how serious that is to the extent of replacement, but if i purchased a UPS system that gave me 10 minute run time, and after 10 years im getting 5 minute run time, thats becoming extremely unreliable.
But more or less, you assumed what i was talking about. Nice job retard.
Connor Anderson
“not mean that you have to continuously spend to keep them at 100%.”
Yes it does. If you overbought capacity just to extend the life-cycle, the extended capacity also degrades, meaning your total cost of ownership increases; not even factoring in opportunity cost.
But all of this is bullshit, batteries are fucking expensive. Money would be better spent building the grid. Instead of batteries think dammed reservoirs. The wind is always blowing somewhere and the sun is always shining somewhere. A global grid and marketplace would optimize collection and minimize cost.
nustada How does cost of ownership increase if the only thing being degraded is the amount of time the battery can power your house for?
Connor Anderson
That is not how it works.
http://solarray.com/TechGuides/Batteries_T.php
http://www.hupsolar.com/buy-HUP-batteries-prices-pricing
nustada Cant get anything out of you. Everything i say is wrong, and you’re always right. Zero wiggle room. Worthless conversation. Done.
Connor Anderson
That is because you are wrong.
Its worthless to you, but if someone else who isn’t an ignoramus learns a bit before making a decision, then it isn’t a waste.
nustada Yup
nustada “i run a data center, so no one can know more about lithium batteries than i do.”
nustada Might i suggest a Rotary UPS system from Hitzinger? Since batteries are such a burden on the budget.
Good
nustada و
Connor Anderson
Cost for batteries is about 20c/kwh of capacity for their life-cycle any use drives up that price, they will last about 15 years. The natural gas runs at about 11c/kwh of use, grid costs 5c/kwh of use, indefinite capacity.
We use natural gas for extended outages. Combined tank and pipeline. We have 48 hours worth of battery, in an outage we run on batteries until the nat gas unit kicks on, a few seconds, then 48 hours worth in case that fails. We have a flywheel that handles brownouts.
nustada k dude
Connor Anderson
Lets do a little math, for an offgrid system, 5 days of storage is the recommended minimum, optimal conditions. Lets double that to 10 days storage. Lets say total worldwide demand grows to 200TW, so we would need 2PW of storage. Lets say “Powerwall” costs $150/kWh to install; that would total to $300 quadrillion dollars.
Lets say HVDC costs $500m/1km. That would mean you could run 600 million meters of of HVDC for the same price as the powerwalls. That is enough to wrap around the earth 47 thousand times. The sun is always shining and the wind is always blowing somewhere.
nustada Do you realize everything degrades? Every single thing in nature has significant degradation over 10 years. Oh no that wooden picnic table no longer has 100% of the structural integrity because of fiber losses. Dang, that non-stick pan pretty much lost its layer of teflon. You know those bulbs that burn out every few years. Or that computer that no longer runs as fast. How about those shoes that lose their sole? Or your pants that rip?
Get real dude. Everything degrades overtime. That does not mean that a household solar/battery backup system is not a good investment. So what if the supposed cost of ownership increases because you’re not getting 100% of the product you paid for in the beginning. Its the same with everything. You never have 100% of the product you initially purchased after 10 years with anything.
GET REAL. Its not just batteries. Everything loses its value over time. Chill out dude, you do not know everything.
Connor Anderson Do you have a spare Nissan Leaf battery in your house? mine is nothing like a shed but the latter will hang on my garage wall quite nicely.
m1aws Unfortunately, i do not own a house. Would be a different world if i did.
Connor Anderson”Do you realize everything degrades?”
Not comparable. Cover lines in rubber, and you you have to replace to poles every 50 years. HVDC uses solid state and only needs to be replaced in case of upgrades.
Connor Anderson Make a super insulated bed lounger container with your tv/pc inside. then you will only need to warm (or cool) a tiny space
nustada The principal is everything degrades. So stop singling out batteries.
That’s beautiful!